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  #16  
Old 06-30-2012, 08:59 PM
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skids skids is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BA80 View Post
Nailed? You just described a bad starter clutch skids.
All 3 of my xs11's have done it in the cold on first start. I also had one that did it with mobil-1 full synthetic oil (mistake) in warmer weather. All three are using the same original starter clutches and are fine now. Another note is that I do not put in 20W50 late in the fall because it contributes to cold start problems when it gets bitter cold. I am one of those guys that starts the bikes occasionally during the winter months. But hey, it is as hot as blazes around here right now!
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  #17  
Old 07-01-2012, 05:53 AM
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James England James England is offline
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From what I've seen stripping these engines, it's a centrifugal force type thing that gets the starter clutch rollers to engage. Too slow an initial spin and the motor just spins and sounds like an electric drill. It needs a bit of oomph! to get those rollers to engage. A combination of cold, thick oil and a poorly performing starter motor (either due to itself or the power supply) means it won't engage.

I wouldn't worry too much. We had minus 16 here last winter, unheard of for the UK, and I couldn't get my XS1100 to start at all. The starter clutch simply would not engage. Nor could I get it to start with the kickstarter. I ended up using jump leads off my car (which was also reticent to start).

I can't imagine you'll be stripping the engine to get at that clutch.
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  #18  
Old 07-01-2012, 06:37 AM
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BA80 BA80 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skids View Post
All 3 of my xs11's have done it in the cold on first start. I also had one that did it with mobil-1 full synthetic oil (mistake) in warmer weather. All three are using the same original starter clutches and are fine now. Another note is that I do not put in 20W50 late in the fall because it contributes to cold start problems when it gets bitter cold. I am one of those guys that starts the bikes occasionally during the winter months. But hey, it is as hot as blazes around here right now!
Mine has done it when it's really cold too but he lives in Florida. I'm fairly certain it's warm there.
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  #19  
Old 07-01-2012, 08:26 AM
Troney Troney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredintoon View Post
Hi Gene,
it takes a complete teardown to get at the starter clutch so try this first:-
Hook up your car battery to the bike battery with jumper cables and see if the starter will engage with a boost.
The starter don't like to engage if the battery is weak.
Mine does this as well.
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  #20  
Old 07-01-2012, 01:21 PM
geneborg geneborg is offline
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I tried again today and it again just spins without engaging. I removed the starter again and messed gently with the starter gear. It appears to be not attached to anything. I can take a screwdriver, with ease, and move it up and down. I can even see part of the center of the gear. Should it not be attached to something ie like a spline?
Who out there has worked with one and can tell me what is happening? Has the starter gear come loose? The starter also has a rim facing that matches to a rim facing on the engine just around the starter gear. The bottom ~1/3 of this facing is missing. I am not sure if this is the design or has part of the rim facing broken off?
gene
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  #21  
Old 07-01-2012, 01:52 PM
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That gear is just an idler gear that meshes in between the drive gear on the end of the starter motor and the gear on the starter glutch down inside the case.

If you can turn it both ways then there is no doubt that the starter clutch is bad. The starter clutch is a one way clutch and if working properly you should only be able to turn it one way.
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Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.

― Albert Einstein

80 SG Ol' Okie;79 engine & carbs w/pods, 45 pilots, 140 mains, Custom Mac 4 into 2 exhaust, ACCT,XS850 final drive,110/90/19 front tire,TKat fork brace, XS750 140 MPH speedometer, Vetter IV fairing, aftermarket hard bags and trunk, LG high back seat, XJ rear shocks.

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  #22  
Old 07-05-2012, 06:42 PM
geneborg geneborg is offline
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I can move the "idler gear" around with a long screw driver. It seems to want to engage with the lower, engine gear at a point to low for the starter to engage it. With the bike on the center stand and putting it in gear I can turn the rear wheel and see this "idler gear" turn in this lower position. I guess I am still not sure how it works. Should it not engage in a position high enough for the starter gear to engage? Should it be as free as it appears inside the engine? Should I be able to raise the gear to some position high enough to engage the starter gear?
gene in FL
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  #23  
Old 07-07-2012, 01:20 PM
geneborg geneborg is offline
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I am looking for some advice from someone who has worked on this gear. I have looked at some diagrams of the "idler gear" you can see with the starter motor removed. Should not this gear be on a shaft? I can move it up with a long screwdriver and see the center of the gear that should be on a shaft on which it spins when needed? If this is the case, is there any "easy" way to get it back on to this shaft?????
gene in FL
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  #24  
Old 07-07-2012, 03:04 PM
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TopCatGr58 TopCatGr58 is offline
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Hey Gene,

Well, now that is a different can of worms! YES, the idler gear should be HELD in position so that the starter motor and gear meshes with it when the starter motor is mounted to the engine! Sounds like that gear has come off it's shaft...HOW we don't know? They are secured with simple "C" type clips, and folks have had these clips come off gears before, mostly in the TRANNY section...the one on the end of the shift fork shaft that meshes with the OIL PUMP!!!

I'll have to do some research with the fiche and my manual, but I'm sure others have had their engines down to be able to view this gear...again not sure if it involves splitting the cases to be able to get access to the shaft that that gear is supposed to be ON...but hopefully NOT! Again others will probably chime in...replying to this will BUMP it up to the top of the thread list anyways!

T.C.
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  #25  
Old 07-07-2012, 03:40 PM
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TopCatGr58 TopCatGr58 is offline
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Hey again,

Okay, regrettably the fiche don't show the parts IN the engine case, but usuaully in exploded views in FREE SPACE! When looking at the Starter Motor and Starter Clutch fiches, they show the starter motor Idler gear, it's mounted on a shaft. The gear sits BEHIND the inside of the right engine case behind the Clutch area. Here's a photo...ignore the arrows, this was for the extra steel plate mod tip I posted a while back.



Mine is an 81SH, so it doesn't use the kick starter. This view is right side up, in the lower left corner is the empty HOLE where a kickstarter shaft would be located. The upper right corner and GEAR is the Primary Shaft gear. The lower right corner is the idler gear and the OIL PUMP gear. Now, look just above the large clutch shaft at the casing, there's a hole...that's the starter motor idler gear SHAFT...the gear sits behind that casing!

I have not split my cases EVER, but I'm thinking because of the location of that hole/shaft and gear proximal to the Starter CLUTCH assembly, that splitting the cases may still be required to get access to that gear to be able to put it back on the shaft! Some PO may have taken the starter motor off at one time, and wasn't careful about putting it back on, and may have not meshed the starter motor gear with the idler gear causing it to get bent or twisted enough to pop the retaining "C" clip off, and then the gear was able to slide sideways and OFF the shaft???

Again, hopefully someone with more case splitting experience can chime in on that gear, access to it, etc., and whether the cases have to be split to get to it???

T.C.
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  #26  
Old 07-09-2012, 08:07 AM
geneborg geneborg is offline
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TC provided some good info but more is needed. I need to make a decision on how to approach this situation. I does appear that the gear is off the spindle. I now need more info on how best to fix. Hopefully with the engine in the bike and thusly not splitting the case. All suggestions appreciated.
gene in FL
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  #27  
Old 07-09-2012, 08:38 AM
DAVINCI DAVINCI is offline
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If the gear is there and you can touch it and wiggle it, it's not completely off the shaft. If it was completely off the shaft it would have fallen into the works. You may be the luckiest man on the face of the earth and just have to push the shaft home and replace the circlip shown in TC's photo.

Unfortunately, to do that you have to remove the clutch. A morning's work, not a disaster, though.

If I were you, I'd open the clutch side and look before i ever tried to rotate that motor again.
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  #28  
Old 07-10-2012, 06:59 PM
geneborg geneborg is offline
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May have solved the puzzle--

I did what you suggested this day. Drained the oil and removed the clutch. Guess what I then saw? The shaft that is supposed to hold the Idler Gear was sticking out into the casing. The gear was totally off the shaft and there was no Circlip. I raised the gear and put the shaft back into the gear center and the Idler gear now turns but one way. I now have to find a replacement Circlip. I have the part number and will try and locate same tomorrow. All but for a Circlip. There have been tooo many hands in the engine with the first gear issue and the engine being out of the bike and upside down, etc. etc.
gene in FL
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  #29  
Old 07-10-2012, 07:47 PM
DAVINCI DAVINCI is offline
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Quick....go buy a lottery ticket...you're the luckiest man I know
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  #30  
Old 07-10-2012, 11:55 PM
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cywelchjr cywelchjr is offline
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He just used up all his luck on that gear, so the lottery ticket would be a waste .
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1980 XS1100G (Brutus) w/81H Engine
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