Home arrow Forums



Go Back   XS11.com Forums > Idle Talk Forum > XS11/XJ11 Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46  
Old 07-24-2014, 05:59 PM
mack mack is offline
XS-XJ Guru
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,400
Yep

My point exactly, BA 80, it's human nature to always think the worst. At this point I would diconnect the drive shaft from the middle drive and roll through the gears again. If it's still stddering then the middle drive is the problem. If it isn't, then the u joint drive shaft is the culpret.
__________________
mack
79 XS 1100 SF Special
HERMES
original owner
http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps6932d5df.jpg

81 XS 1100 LH MNS
SPICA
http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad305/mack-055/2.jpg

78 XS 11E
IOTA
https://youtu.be/wB5Jfbp6SUc
https://youtu.be/RaI3WYHSuWA



Have recovery trailer and shop if you breakdown in my area.
Frankford, Ont, Canada
613-398-6186
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 07-24-2014, 06:30 PM
BA80's Avatar
BA80 BA80 is offline
Doctor of XSology
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tulsa, Ok
Posts: 9,780
Quote:
Originally Posted by mack View Post
My point exactly, BA 80, it's human nature to always think the worst. At this point I would diconnect the drive shaft from the middle drive and roll through the gears again. If it's still stddering then the middle drive is the problem. If it isn't, then the u joint drive shaft is the culpret.
Yeah Mack, that's why I suggested that he look at the oil in the middle drive.

That's where he thinks the noise is coming from anyway.
__________________
Greg

Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”

― Albert Einstein

80 SG Ol' Okie;79 engine & carbs w/pods, 45 pilots, 140 mains, Custom Mac 4 into 2 exhaust, ACCT,XS850 final drive,110/90/19 front tire,TKat fork brace, XS750 140 MPH speedometer, Vetter IV fairing, aftermarket hard bags and trunk, LG high back seat, XJ rear shocks.

The list changes.

Visit XS11.org too......
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 07-24-2014, 09:21 PM
mesmeridicus mesmeridicus is offline
XSive
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajun31 View Post
Obviously the videos would be a big help, however just reading through this thread it seems that you are still going to have to do some wrenching. If I were in your shoes I would accept the Lorax's offer and help with his and yours. Two sets of hands and eyes are much better then one and besides having two people will aid in getting the bikes stripped and flipped. I would also print out the tech from this site as large as I could make it with the pictorial so that it could be easily referenced.

Barring that you at minimum need to remove the back wheel and drive train up to the middle gear. That would be a good start and would give you an opportunity to examine all your u joints and final drive housing for damage. If none exist there then you down to the middle drive unit and transmission. The middle drive unit could then be inspected for damage by removing the side cover and you would already be seeing the other side by removing the drive shaft assembly. For a bike of this age you need to do all of that anyway and clean and grease everything with fresh grease. You don't need a lot of mechanical no how to do these tasks. The transmission is another story but with the help of this site and Lorax you should be able to accomplish that as well. As has been said .... if you are going to own and ride these old machines you can not be afraid to dig in and learn. I understand your apprehension, however at worst you don't get it fixed .... so what have you lost... your not riding now anyway.

By the way not trying to be nosy or get into your business but did you buy that bike as configured as a café or have you done some work on it? How much do you now have invested in it and is it worth it to you to invest more money or time? From my perspective my time has less impact on my wallet.
I sent a message to Lorax, I'm going to take whatever help I can get.

Regarding the cafe modifications: no, I purchased it stock. I put new handlebars, mirrors, license plate/brake light bracket on it. About a week ago, actually, I had finally managed to get that seat on. I had tried to make my own, failed; went to a custom shop, guy said he'd make one then blew me off for two months; finally, purchased that seat off Tuffside and had some bars welded on to mount it.

I really like this bike and have been working on it in my small, slow way for a year and a half now. I'll get her running one way or another.
__________________
79 SF
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 07-24-2014, 09:26 PM
mesmeridicus mesmeridicus is offline
XSive
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 74
Pulled the middle gear cover off, drained oil. Couldn't see anything wrong with it, but I really don't know what to look for. Turned fine, no metal chips or anything that I could see.

Anyway, here are the two videos.

Bike on centerstand:

http://youtu.be/xMssPfnXme0

Bike on ground:

http://youtu.be/NEsl1lHgMXo


As I noted earlier, the rear wheel will spin when on centerstand. You will see in the second video, however, that there is not enough power to move the bike.

I directed my brother to attempt to capture the (now duller) sound coming from the bike, which is why most of both videos is a close shot of the middle drive/transmission.

Hope this can help.
__________________
79 SF
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 07-25-2014, 01:41 AM
cajun31's Avatar
cajun31 cajun31 is offline
XSive Maximus
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 737
watched the videos

engine was loud in videos so I could not really here the clunking stuttering you are describing. May just be me I don't know. Very strange though. Looks like it is shifting through the gears ok though. I found this listing on Ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/1978-Yamaha-...6c06d6&vxp=mtr

Might want to grab it as a buy it now just in case you need anything from it. What happens if on center stand and you put in gear and try to hold the rear wheel still? How much resistance is there? I notice when not on stand that you have absolutely no torque at rear wheel to even cause you to lose balance. I am hoping that something has not happened to your primary. If that is the case and not the transmission then you are in for more of a job then I would think you would want to tackle.

Hard to say from video.... could still be a number of things.
__________________
80 LG
02 FXSTB Nighttrain
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 07-25-2014, 01:45 AM
cajun31's Avatar
cajun31 cajun31 is offline
XSive Maximus
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 737
another cheap part

you might be interested in: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1979-Yamaha-...c5d8fa&vxp=mtr
__________________
80 LG
02 FXSTB Nighttrain
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 07-25-2014, 02:41 AM
mesmeridicus mesmeridicus is offline
XSive
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajun31 View Post
engine was loud in videos so I could not really here the clunking stuttering you are describing. May just be me I don't know. Very strange though. Looks like it is shifting through the gears ok though. I found this listing on Ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/1978-Yamaha-...6c06d6&vxp=mtr

Might want to grab it as a buy it now just in case you need anything from it. What happens if on center stand and you put in gear and try to hold the rear wheel still? How much resistance is there? I notice when not on stand that you have absolutely no torque at rear wheel to even cause you to lose balance. I am hoping that something has not happened to your primary. If that is the case and not the transmission then you are in for more of a job then I would think you would want to tackle.

Hard to say from video.... could still be a number of things.
Thanks, I may jump on that tomorrow.

My primary? Primary input shaft for gearbox? Jesus, worse than the transmission?

Wonderful.
__________________
79 SF
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 07-25-2014, 02:51 AM
mesmeridicus mesmeridicus is offline
XSive
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajun31 View Post
engine was loud in videos so I could not really here the clunking stuttering you are describing. May just be me I don't know. Very strange though.
By stuttering I mean the bike is trying to move forward a bit, not any particular sound.

Clunking (grinding) is definitely less pronounced today when I started her back up. I don't know why.

Main symptom is, essentially, bike will not move in gear. Shifts through gears fine, and at one point I even heard that normal clacking sound one often hears when downshifting from second to first with these bikes, so something is moving down there.
__________________
79 SF
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 07-25-2014, 03:08 AM
ViperRon's Avatar
ViperRon ViperRon is offline
XS-XJ Guru
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Woodstock, VA
Posts: 1,056
I saw the videos and they give me a different perception than I first had. I thought the drive train would bind up under power. What yours does is totally break loose no resistance. Before you get into the engine can I get you to verify one thing for me. You may have done this but if you have engine off put in high gear key off tilt on stand and see if you can by hand forcefully rotate the rear wheel. The other way would be to take the rubber boot loose to see the U joint and run the bike in gear and see if the U joint is spinning. I may have missed you testing this previous but with the problem getting worse and as little noise as I hear it could be issues with the final drive.
__________________
To fix the problem one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed.

Rodan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khm6...liHntN91DHjHiS
1980 G Silverbird
Original Yamaha Fairfing and Bags
1198 Overbore kit
Grizzly 660 ACCT
Barnett Clutch Springs
R1 Clutch Fiber Plates
122.5 Main Jets
ACCT Mod
Mac 4-2 Flare Tips
Antivibe Bar ends
Rear trunk add-on
http://s1184.photobucket.com/albums/z329/viperron1/
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 07-25-2014, 03:10 AM
James England's Avatar
James England James England is offline
XS-XJ Super Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North of England
Posts: 3,039
Ok, so... The bike changes through all the gears, no problem. A good sign.

But the drive is not being transmitted to the rear wheel. The videos make that very clear and were well worth posting. There is not even enough oomph to make the bike move.

So, engine is running. Power is going through the clutch and the gearbox, hence being able to change through the gears. You would not be able to scroll through the gears like you did if the gearbox were static.

The problem is that the drive is not reaching the rear wheel.

You really must remove that middle drive. Then you will be able to check the drive, and the drive shaft, and the rear wheel gearbox. You will also be able to check the gear that the middle gearbox actually connects up to (advice on that once you have the middle gearbox off).

The middle gearbox is held on by Allen bolts. When removing the middle drive cover, you will have removed a long bolt which is on the left of a pair of bolts at the bottom of the cover. That is one of the middle drive bolts and will need to be removed with the others.

Get that gearbox off and then report back with pix and viids.....
__________________
XS1100F 1980 European model. Standard. Dyna coils. Iridium plugs. XS750 final drive (sometimes). Micron fork brace. Progressive front springs. Geezer regulator/rectifier. Stainless 4 into 2 exhaust. Auto CCT (Venturer 1300) SOLD. New project now on the go. 1980 European model.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 07-25-2014, 03:40 AM
Eveready1100 Eveready1100 is offline
XSive Maximus
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Childers, Queensland,Australia
Posts: 539
Personally, I'll put my money on the driveshaft being shagged.
With the bike on the centrestand, the shaft will be in a different position to the riding position, so may have enough engagement in that position to spin the rear wheel.
When on the ground, it gets into the most worn position so no drive.

It'd be the easiest thing to check, too.
__________________
79 SF Special W/ Stock all original motor @ 384,000klms
Stock exhaust, stock airbox, XJ sump, 78E carbs, Xs1100RH seat, Bosch superhorns, 5/8ths front M/c, braided lines, sintered SBS pads, drilled discs, progressive springs, 8" 50w HID headlight 4300K, 2 x 50w HID spiral driving lights, KONI shocks, Spade fuse box
*Touring mode - Plexistar 2 screen, Gearsack rack & bag & saddlebags, homebuilt towbar
*"The Keg"- UC torana hubs, XS11 discs, Tokico 4 spot calipers
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 07-25-2014, 04:07 AM
BillyRok BillyRok is offline
XStremely XSive
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Shortsville, NY.
Posts: 406
I didn't see anything about miles on the bike, how long you've owned it, or drive train maintenance. Seems if it was clutch or tranny you wouldn't be able to run up and down through the gears like you did. Here is a thread about middle drive removal, post #7 shows the 7 allen bolts you need to remove (although one is already removed in the pic) and the flange on the right side that connects to the universal inside the big black rubber boot. http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread...e+middle+drive

I'm wondering if the splines on the drive shaft aren't almost completely gone due to lack of greasing it? I would start at the back end and drain the oil from the final drive (19 mm drain bolt just like middle drive) and then pull the rear tire. Then you can unbolt the final drive (4 bolts) and be able to see the splines on both the input and output side of the FD. Now you can see the end of the drive shaft inside the swing arm to check those splines. Removing the drive shaft is pretty easy, you can loop some wire, twine, etc. up around the shaft past the splines and yank it out. Now you'll be able to see the front splines where the drive shaft mates up with the universal which bolts to the middle drive flange you saw in the picture above.

The 4 bolts holding the universal to the middle drive can be tough to remove, you may need a second pair of hands to hold a punch through the middle of the universal (be careful how/where you insert it) and have somebody hold it to keep things from turning while you break those 4 bolts loose.

That's the method I used to take mine apart before, but somebody else might suggest first unbolting the 4 universal bolts while everything is still put together and then working forward as described above. We're all interested in what you find, curiosity has been peaked...keep at it!
__________________
Billy

1982 XJ1100, Ceramic Coated Headers, Raptor ACCT, Barnett Clutch Springs, Dremmel Fix, TC's Fuse Block, De-Linked S/S Brake Lines, 850 Final Drive, Yahman's YICS Eliminator, Pods, stock jets
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 07-25-2014, 04:12 AM
cajun31's Avatar
cajun31 cajun31 is offline
XSive Maximus
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 737
get the manual

Go to catatonicbugs web site and download the manual. there are step by step instructions on how to do some of the things we are all suggesting. Here is the link for his page http://www.ringler.us/family/mybike.html.

I know you are feeling overwhelmed, anyone would be, and everyone is throwing one suggestion after the other at you. If you understood a little more about how the power of the engine is transferred through the primary gears through the middle drive assembly through the drive shaft to the final drive then you could begin to see why everyone is so unsure as to what the specific problem is. I believe everyone and you especially is hoping that it is something simple rather then the more involved problems. You are going to have to bite the bullet and work your way from the back of the bike up to the middle drive gear and as James suggested you will probably have to remove the middle drive assembly if the problem is not found in the drive shaft, u joint or final drive. The manual will help you as you proceed. A lot of reading but like I said before time is something you have without spending a penny. As you look at some of the illustrations in the manual you will begin to develop ideas as to what could be wrong from what you are hearing a seeing. I am not ruling out anything yet.
__________________
80 LG
02 FXSTB Nighttrain
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 07-25-2014, 05:15 AM
WMarshy's Avatar
WMarshy WMarshy is offline
XS-XJ Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mexico NY
Posts: 2,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by James England View Post
Ok, so... The bike changes through all the gears, no problem. A good sign.

But the drive is not being transmitted to the rear wheel. The videos make that very clear and were well worth posting. There is not even enough oomph to make the bike move.

So, engine is running. Power is going through the clutch and the gearbox, hence being able to change through the gears. You would not be able to scroll through the gears like you did if the gearbox were static.

The problem is that the drive is not reaching the rear wheel.

You really must remove that middle drive. Then you will be able to check the drive, and the drive shaft, and the rear wheel gearbox. You will also be able to check the gear that the middle gearbox actually connects up to (advice on that once you have the middle gearbox off).

The middle gearbox is held on by Allen bolts. When removing the middle drive cover, you will have removed a long bolt which is on the left of a pair of bolts at the bottom of the cover. That is one of the middle drive bolts and will need to be removed with the others.

Get that gearbox off and then report back with pix and viids.....
Although I agree with everything you said, I would not recommend jumping right in and removing the middle drive without pulling back the rubber boot and looking at the u-joint first and trying a few other things. Ya have to pull it back to disconnect the middle drive from the drive shaft yoke anyways, might as well do it now. With your symptoms if it was a u-joint I'd expect it to be completely failed and obvious so pull back the rubber boot and inspect it... process of elimination.

With the rubber boot pulled back put the bike in gear and rotate the wheel by hand and observe the u-joint. If the shaft/u-joint isnt moving then its a problem with your final drive. If the shaft rotates then your back to the middle drive. Listen for any noise while doing this. A healthy drive train should only have 3-4 inches of backlash (tire travel) before it engages all the gears and crank shaft. Only noise I hear when I do this on my bike is a slight click from the starter clutch...

Do that and let us know what you discover.
__________________
'79 XS11 F
Stock except K&N

'79 XS11 SF
Stock, no title.

'84 Chevy K-10 "Big Blue"
GM 350, Muncie SM465, NP208, GM 10 Bolt with 3.42gears turnin 31x10.5 Baja Claws

"What they do have is an implacable, unrelenting presence and movement that bespeaks massive power lurking behind paint and chrome. They don't wail like a screeching ninja, the don't rumble like a harley. They just growl like a spactic, stressed out badger waiting to rip your face off and eat your soul." Trainzz~RIP~

Last edited by WMarshy; 07-25-2014 at 05:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 07-25-2014, 06:26 AM
mack mack is offline
XS-XJ Guru
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,400
Close

Well Mes, your getting close to solving this riddle. As suggested, pull back the boot and diconnect the four bolts at the drive shaft connection. Start it up and listen to see if you still have the noise. If not, life is good.Probably the U-joint drive shaft connection. If so then you need to pull the middle drive off. Life can still be good. Start it again and see if you still have the sound. If not then life is good still. A middle drive swap is all thats needed. If you still have the sound while running in gear then life just took a down turn. It's most likely the middle drive gear and not the drive itself. This would not be good.
__________________
mack
79 XS 1100 SF Special
HERMES
original owner
http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps6932d5df.jpg

81 XS 1100 LH MNS
SPICA
http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad305/mack-055/2.jpg

78 XS 11E
IOTA
https://youtu.be/wB5Jfbp6SUc
https://youtu.be/RaI3WYHSuWA



Have recovery trailer and shop if you breakdown in my area.
Frankford, Ont, Canada
613-398-6186
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
clutch, diagnose, help needed, repair, transmission

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Integrated by BBpixel ©2004-2019, jvbPlugin