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-   -   Help, both something wrong and I'm an idiot (http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42865)

Pain 09-15-2014 09:03 PM

Help, both something wrong and I'm an idiot
 
I have occasionally posted and freely admit to only a vague clue of what I'm doing. So, here's the story.

Last year my xs11h wouldn't start. Cranked, but that was all. I noted a low oil level, assumed the worst, and waited until I had time to dig into it.

Time arrived, and instead of checking the simple stuff I opened up the valve cover (30psi compression in each cylinder, but that was with the throttle closed. My local mechanic said I should've checked with throttle open, and since I didn't 30psi wasn't bad). I thought one of the cams had jumped a tooth, but it didn't look like it once it was open.

Backing up, I checked the valves and closed up the valve cover, deciding to check for spark. I hit the starter, it cranked a couple times, then stopped. I thought the battery was low, maybe it was, but I had forgotten to reinstall the cam chain tensioner.

So, I installed that again, but the bike still won't turn over. On the timing wheel (left side of the engine, with all the marks, rotate clockwise) I can get about 1/4 turn either way.

I have no idea what's wrong. Suggestions are encouraged before I give up and send the whole thing to my mechanic with a wad of money and say "make run good."

I have done some searching, btw, but there has been so much said (and said again) about the cam chain tensioner that wading through it all is a mess. And yeah, I know I'm adding to the mess, but I really couldn't find anything.

vedgar 09-15-2014 09:43 PM

Turn over by hand ?
 
Remove the spark plugs and turn the engine over by hand using the bolt and a 19 mm wrench. What was the result?

motoman 09-15-2014 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pain (Post 450064)
I have occasionally posted and freely admit to only a vague clue of what I'm doing. So, here's the story.

Last year my xs11h wouldn't start. Cranked, but that was all. I noted a low oil level, assumed the worst, and waited until I had time to dig into it.

Time arrived, and instead of checking the simple stuff I opened up the valve cover (30psi compression in each cylinder, but that was with the throttle closed. My local mechanic said I should've checked with throttle open, and since I didn't 30psi wasn't bad). I thought one of the cams had jumped a tooth, but in didn't look line it once it was open.

Backing up, I checked the valves and closed up the valve cover, deciding to check for spark. I hit the starter, it cranked a couple times, then stopped. I thought the battery was low, maybe it was, but I had forgotten to reinstall the cam chain tensioner.

So, I installed that again, but the bike still won't turn over. On the timing wheel (left side of the engine, with all the marks, rotate clockwise) I can get about 1/4 turn either way.

I have no idea what's wrong. Suggestions are encouraged before I give up and send the whole thing to my mechanic with a wad of money and say "make run good."

I have done some searching, btw, but there has been so much said (and said again) about the cam chain tensioner that wading through it all is a mess. And yeah, I know I'm adding to the mess, but I really couldn't find anything.

If taking to a 'supposedly' mechanic, gonna take more than a wad of money......likely way more than you think. Help is here on this site, for those that wanna learn and have the gratitude knowing accomplishment when done. If not, thirty plus yr. old scoots are likely not part of your future. The information and knowledge is HERE, not a dealer nor bike shop.......others here insisting have found out the expensive way, THEN come here.......just sayin' ;).

motoman 09-15-2014 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motoman (Post 450068)
If taking to a 'supposedly' mechanic, gonna take more than a wad of money......likely way more than you think. Help is here on this site, for those that wanna learn and have the gratitude knowing accomplishment when done. If not, thirty plus yr. old scoots are likely not part of your future. The information and knowledge is HERE, not a dealer nor bike shop.......others here insisting have found out the expensive way, THEN come here.......just sayin' ;).

.......but you already knew that:). Sounds like maybe you now have some possible bent valves.

Pain 09-16-2014 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vedgar (Post 450067)
Remove the spark plugs and turn the engine over by hand using the bolt and a 19 mm wrench. What was the result?

No change.


And I know it will probably be expensive if it goes to a mechanic. I want to try and fix it myself, that was why I started working on it. But I don't have all the time I would like, and if I run out then off it goes.

Pain 09-16-2014 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motoman (Post 450069)
Sounds like maybe you now have some possible bent valves.

Why bent valves? (before I start taking more of the engine apart)

trbig 09-16-2014 06:59 AM

A loose/unistalled cam chain tensioner will let the crank sprocket skip on the chain. The crank pulling the chain is what drives the cams. So what probably happened is your crank turned and the teeth didn't pull the cam chain along, and didn't pull the cams with it. So whichever valves were in the down position probably got hit by the pistons... :(

Fixable, but you now have a winter project... And +1 on NOT taking it to any mechanics unless they've been doing it for 30+ years and personally knows these bikes.

mack 09-16-2014 07:02 AM

valves
 
rotating the motor w/o the cct installed will allow the chain to jump teeth on the sprockets and or crankshaft putting the cams out of time. When this happens the valves can contact each other and or the piston crowns. They are delicate and bend easily. Sounds like you need to remove the head now and replace the bent ones. Hopefully only one or two bent before it bound up. It's not difficult to do and is explained well in your manual. Thats the cardinal rule though. NEVER rotate the engine without the CCT installed.

Pain 09-16-2014 07:22 AM

Well, at least I'v confirmed the idiot part. Just plain forgot I'd taken it out, too long between times I was working on it.

I'll break out the manual and read about pulling the head off and replacing the valves. This is something I've done on smaller engines.

How hard can it be, right? :eek:

skids 09-16-2014 08:18 AM

If you are going in, you will want a complete gasket kit. That way you can replace all valve seals and recondition your valves. Look into using a small valve spring compresser, or consider making a tool out of pvc and a large c-clamp. Keep your parts organized so that you dont get then mixed up. Do the work on the centerstand so that the chain is easier to keep in the crank sprocket at critical times. The valve keepers can be removed with a small magnetic wand. Getting them back into place involves a little magic. :-)

red bandit 09-16-2014 10:55 AM

Take plugs out. GENTLY turn engine over by hand until it stops. Using a good/bright light look in each plug hole and see if a valve is open and piston is up/in sight and/or if two valves are open.

motoman 09-16-2014 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red bandit (Post 450094)
Take plugs out. GENTLY turn engine over by hand until it stops. Using a good/bright light look in each plug hole and see if a valve is open and piston is up/in sight and/or if two valves are open.

WHY:confused:........there likely bent anyways......no use adding more bent ones:rolleyes:.

trbig 09-16-2014 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red bandit (Post 450094)
Take plugs out. GENTLY turn engine over by hand until it stops. Using a good/bright light look in each plug hole and see if a valve is open and piston is up/in sight and/or if two valves are open.


I don't think you can actually see the valves by doing this, but you might be able to see some spots in the carbon on the pistons that have touched. That being said, I agree that Pain needs to just quit turning anything more at this point except the nuts/bolts that take the head off.

red bandit 09-16-2014 02:30 PM

If you turn it over gently you won't bend any. But go ahead and tear the engine apart anyway. You never know you might get lucky and they aren't bent and you can just retime it. And yes I agree they probably are bent. Just trying to save the guy some time and work. Like I said, sometimes you get lucky.

motoman 09-16-2014 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red bandit (Post 450105)
If you turn it over gently you won't bend any. But go ahead and tear the engine apart anyway. You never know you might get lucky and they aren't bent and you can just retime it. And yes I agree they probably are bent. Just trying to save the guy some time and work. Like I said, sometimes you get lucky.

Sometimes..........but highly unlikely in this case since he spun it over with the starter;).


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